Sunday, June 10, 2007

Oh Look, I'm Famous...

Wow. 374 visitors today. Either the ABM article or the FC-1 article is generating a lot of attention, because that's way above average for this place.

I wonder which article it could be?

Let's get a few things straight from the get-go. I have nothing against the nation of Pakistan, or its citizens. I do have some issues with the policies of its government, as is my right as an individual allowed to think for myself and have opinions. I have nothing against the people or the nation of China or India either, for that matter.

There are, naturally, people out there that are just not amused, apparently, by my criticism of Pakistan's FC-1 purchase. They take issue with the fact that I am apparently disparaging the aircraft, which I am not, or the Pakistani Air Force, which I am also not.

Here's one of them now, by someone calling himself Fahad H:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=107864&postcount=52

First off, nobody has to like what I write. I could really care less, I do it because I enjoy it. The ABM feature? That was really fun. But I do find it funny that anyone not agreeing with PAF fanboys is automatically labeled as some sort of inferior person.

Let's address this guy's points before we move on to the next gem from PakDef.

First off, what does my article have to do with the Indian LCA project anyway? Nothing, that's what. As I explained in the comments, I didn't view the LCA and the FC-1 as likely opponents with the MKI flying around performing air superiority and barrier air defense. If you ask me the LCA is best suited as a point defense aircraft for the most part (a smart poster could potentially twist and construe that as a belief that the FC-1 is superior to the LCA, but no, they went right for the insults). The FC-1 might be suited for that role as well, but it enjoys relatively good range performance and as it will help to replace the Mirages and A-5s in the PAF it will invariably have to be tasked with some strike sorties as well. So, I evaluated the FC-1 against the Su-30MKI, and not the LCA, which is still a little farther behind if you ask me.

Fahad H claims that Indian production of the Su-30MKI by HAL is moving along slowly. That may be right, it's not like they have a lot of experience making modern fighter aircraft. But as of right now it is in service, and the FC-1 is not. Also, what guarantee is there that Pakistan will be able to produce the FC-1 at a faster rate? What was the last fast jet combat aircraft assembled in Pakistan?

The PAF doesn't require that many J-10s because they're getting more F-16s? The last time I checked, Pakistan was getting 18 F-16s, but wanted to buy around 70 more. I won't even touch that issue here for now, but my point wasn't so much to replace the F-16 with the J-10, but the FC-1. The J-10 is a more capable aircraft. The J-10 is not actually all that much more expensive than the FC-1 either. Moving on.

AWACS environment-that'll be present on both sides of the equation before long, but the author seems to think that it will only be of a benefit to the PAF.

And the last line is really, for lack of a better word, stupid. The only reason it is included is because of the Indian reliance on twin-engined fighters like the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29. Let me check...the RAF, the Luftwaffe, the Russian Air Force, China if you consider the sheer numbers of twin engined types in service right now...all of them must be equally as stupid, right Fahad? But why aren't they mentioned?

And I'm the one here that has a problem, supposedly.

Now let's look at another one, posted by someone called Munir:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=107864&postcount=53

Wow, now we're really getting scientific. Not only am I immature, but I am also apparently an Indian working in the IT industry. Sorry fellas, but I'm about as American as they come. If you google'd white guy, you'd probably get my picture.

The first paragraph is mostly just a bunch of slander, but there is one interesting point. Munir claims that I believe that anything Chinese is inferior to anything Indian. That is not the case, and I never pretended to take that viewpoint. In fact, there are a number of areas where China has a pretty substantial lead over India. There's jet engines (WS-10 vs. Kaveri), fighter aircraft (J-10 vs. LCA), SAM systems (HQ-9 vs. Akash), ICBMs (CSS-4 vs. nothing), nuclear submarines (Han and Jin classes vs. the still incomplete ATV), and I could continue. Insofar as Pakistan and India are concerned, Pakistan certainly has nothing to be ashamed of with their clear lead over India in the cruise missile field (Babur vs. nothing, BrahMOS is not yet a true land attack weapon, even the official site states it is primarily an anti-ship weapon) and the development of guided air-to-ground weapons (H-4 vs. nothing). So, that part of Munir's argument falls right apart quite nicely.

He then claims that India is doing something wrong by importing weapons and not developing them. OK Munir, are you going to campaign for an end to Pakistani F-16 purchases then, since the FC-1 can on some level be considered a local Pakistani product? The rest of his point is spot on, insofar as that any major conflict would make all of this pointless as it would be nuclear.

Wait a minute...didn't I say the same thing at the end of my article? He must have missed it.

Here's the last one, from someone calling himeslf Sabre, available here:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=107881&postcount=56

His first paragraph isn't relevant here, but he gets things going in the second one. See, it's his fourth sentence that eliminates him from the ranks of credible dissenters. If he knew me at all, he'd know that I've served in the US Air Force. So I guess I must be one of the experts, right? Of course not, because I don't share his viewpoint, apparently.

In his third paragraph he claims that I have culled all of my data from Indian websites (again with the disparaging, racist use of the term Indian as an ethnic slur, but I bet you he has no bias himself whatsoever, right?), and have purposely looked for sources to make the FC-1 look bad. Sorry guy, couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the analysis is my own, based in no small part on my operational experience. A lot of the information on the FC-1 was pulled from Chinese language websites, as well as another blog site that was praised by the people at PakDef in the same thread where they trashed me. I tried to actually use PakDef's own website for information, but their FC-1 page is so outdated that the latest update on it is that the 2nd prototype just took off. But the bottom line is that this is primarily an opinion piece. Sure, it's based on fact, but the conclusions are mine alone and represent my personal opinion. Which is that Pakistan could do better than the FC-1. What in the world is wrong with that?

Then, he goes on to claim that I said that the FC-1 is inferior because of it's relationship to the J-7. Where did I do that? I did provide a brief history of the program in the first part of the article, and yes, the FC-1 will probably replace Pakistan's F-7s (export J-7s for the uninformed), but nowhere did I state that the FC-1 was inferior because it descends in some fashion from the J-7. English comprehension sorta helps if you want to read something I write and comment about it.

Lastly he goes on to label me as "pathetic and unprofessional". He claims that bias shouldn't enter into something like this, but he is obviously biased himself towards anyone not sharing his viewpoint. I'd love to know how my article is biased. Let's see if one of them can explain that without using the phrase "because you don't like the FC-1" or some manner thereof.

The problem I have with people like this is that they are clearly acting in an overly nationalistic manner without regard to the context or the facts of an argument. Guess what, it happens everywhere, this is not some sort of problem restricted to Pakistani internet posters, not by far. Some of the Indian posters I've come across are just as misguided as these two. I've even seen Chinese, American, and Russian posters just as obnoxious and misinformed.

The other problem I have is that they are purposely acting in an infantile and insulting manner for the sole purpose of attempting to undermine the credibility of what I write, and myself as a person. If you have a constructive argument to make, fine, come here and post a comment and I usually respond to them if I notice (I did go back a few days ago to review some old posts and noticed that someone had posted a comment after that post got bumped from the front page, so I responded late to that one).

At any rate, I guess I should be amused by the fact that there are people out there that are just so irate at what I've written that they take the link to another forum to complain about. What I don't understand is how they completely managed to miss the point. Like I said before, the purpose of the article was not to slag the FC-1 as some worthless aircraft, but to explain why, in MY OPINION, the FC-1 is not the right fit for the PAF.

So, to conclude, let's ask and asnwer a few questions to make this crystal clear for everyone with a working knowledge of the English language.

1. Is the FC-1 a worthless aircraft?
-No. It offers multi-role performance at low cost and is ideally suited for third-world air arms with lower operating and procurement budgets.

2. Will the FC-1 be a failure in PAF service?
-No. The FC-1 is a genuine upgrade in terms of performance and capability over the current PAF inventory, and that includes non-upgraded F-16s.

3. Is there a better aircraft for the PAF than the FC-1?
-Yes. In my opinion the PAF would be better off with the further increased capabilities of the J-10.

4. How does the FC-1 compare to the Indian LCA?
-I have no idea. My interests lie in Russian and Chinese military products. Hence the interest in the FC-1, the J-10, and the Su-30MKI. I could care less about the LCA, but it would seem to me that the LCA is a relatively pointless endeavor given the MRCA buy in the works. It would seem at this point to be a symbol of national pride more than anything else. If you want to know how it works, go find someone interested in the jet.

5. Why do I hate Pakistan?
-I don't have any negative feelings towards the bulk of the Pakistani people or their nation. I take issue with some of the positions and actions of the Musharraf government. There is a difference there, it's like complaining about Bush, even Americans do that. I also take issue with those that are supporting Islamic extremism by harboring Taliban and Al Qaeda remnants in and around Waziristan.

Hopefully that clears up any outstanding issues regarding my opinion on certain issues.

And would you look at that, I didn't even need to call anyone immature or make racist generalizations about their nationality and occupation. What is the world coming to.

51 comments:

Farooq said...

The immaturity comments were clearly in bad taste.

Hey but thats how the fame works ;)

SOC for prsident :)

Sean O'Connor said...

Yeah, I'd never get elected. All the IRS agents that I'd be firing would gang up on me and lock me into a fifty-year tax audit to keep me from campaigning!

Sean O'Connor said...

Here's one final thought. I was going to post the text of the three slanderous posts, but I noticed something down at the bottom of PakDef's forum stating that no-one is allowed to reproduce the contents of their website without permission.

So, here's the Catch-22 for them to contend with.

If they leave the posts unedited so that others may view them and form their own opinions regarding my writing and the Pakistani response, I won't do anything with what I have.

But, if they delete or edit the posts, making part or all of the posts no longer a part of their website, then I'll just throw up either the deleted quotations or the complete screen captures of the posts in question, fully within their rules as that information is no longer a part of their website.

Anonymous said...

Sean Munir is a Pakistani banned from AFM for flamebaiting. He registered under three different ids and is a full blown bigot. Hes from the Netherlands btw, and was (not) tickled pink when he got found out and booted out. His id was PLA if i recall.
MHussein is PLA MK-II.

Anonymous said...

SOC,

I dont think you understand what the LCA is meant for- its intended to create a local aerospace industry, beyond just license manufacturing items. And when the J-10 is stated to be "superior" to the LCA..the only superiority is that the former is in service. We know next to nothing about its performance, about its avionics, about its manoueverability beyond what the PRC deems fit to show anyone.

As of now, thanks to the LCA India is upgrading its fighters on its own, and has launched several other programs which use LCA derived equipment or experience. Its the steamroller approach.

The MRCA is not linked to the LCA, bar the fact one can cover for a delay in the other etc etc. There are three classes of aircraft in the IAF

Light, Medium, Heavy- the LCA goes into the first, as a replacement (not one on one) for the massive park of MiG-21s.

Sean O'Connor said...

"Sean Munir is a Pakistani banned from AFM for flamebaiting."

I could care less if he was or wasn't. That has no bearing on what he said as far as I'm concerned.

Anonymous said...

Sean looking at your IRS comment i have feeling there is something very interesting there :D
Why don't you do an article on that as well.

Sean O'Connor said...

Don't worry, once we get closer to election time, I'll do something on what my personal platform might be if I was running!

Sean O'Connor said...

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?p=107895&postcount=60

Now he says the MKI is superior to the FC-1...is he also an immature Indian IT tech? Or a hypocrite?

Anonymous said...

Well, Sean I agree with most of your points and think that discussion should be done on logical grounds instead of pointless flame. The only thing I disagree with is, your point regarding the policies of our(Pakistani) government. With 80k troops deployed on afghan front more casualties suffered than the rest of coalition combined, what more does anyone want from the government. The thing is this kind of war is not easy to win, otherwise USA might have won Iraq by now.

Sean O'Connor said...

Part of the American problem in Iraq is that we're always prepared to fight the last war. That, and we didn't do the smart thing and try and set up a loose Federation with a Kurdish state, a Sunni state, and a Shia state. So Turkey would've been irritated, so what? Did I miss them letting us open up a second front in the North from the outset?

As for the rest, feel free to take issue with whatever you want that I write. You at least deserve credit for coming here and posting your objection directly rather than trying to hide on another forum. My issue with Pakistan stems from the perceived non-intervention in Waziristan and the Pashtun areas. Musharraf doesn't want to alienate and further irritate them, that's fine, he has to deal with them on a daily basis, whereas I do not. But in my opinion as an outside observer, they could be acting in a much more proactive manner. The American military has tracked people over there but can't pursue them across the border; set up a joint unit with Pakistan and allow cross-border policing, and you'll get better results and I'll give Musharraf the credit for doing something genuinely proactive. The problem isn't that these people reside in Pakistan, it's that they cross into Afghanistan and raise hell and then go back and hide out in Pakistan.

Anonymous said...

Well, you have to put yourself in the man's boot, while Iraq is thousands of miles away from america, waziristan is within Pakistan, so Musharaf has to handle it "very delicately". Remember in the beginning he did go in all guns blazing but to no avail. So IMHO, he is just trying a different strategy. Plus you have to recognize that even though he is being blamed for a lot but when he proposes things like moving the afghan refugees back(from whom insergents draw their power base) or fencing the border to help curb cross border movement, the afghan government and some coalition members are first to condemn it.
P.S.: Remember musharaf survived 2 attempts on his life because of his efforts for the war.

Anonymous said...

I could care less if he was or wasn't. That has no bearing on what he said as far as I'm concerned.

Of course it does, you dumb Injun!
He was banned not because he flamebaited, but because he was Pakistani..so that leap of logic makes keymags Indian and you as well. Gettit?

:p :p

So you must be an IT Tech hiding behind a western name, one day you will be found out, mark my words. You'll have an insatiable craving for curry and , I dunno..bollywood dancing (the horror, the horror).

Sean O'Connor said...

"Of course it does, you dumb Injun!"

Use the proper insults genius, the term Injun is a derogatory name for native Americans...although personally I do consider myself a native as I was born here, but that's an anti-PC argument.

"He was banned not because he flamebaited, but because he was Pakistani..so that leap of logic makes keymags Indian and you as well. Gettit?"

Well that certainly doesn't fly...why haven't ALL the Pakistanis been banned?

"So you must be an IT Tech hiding behind a western name, one day you will be found out, mark my words. You'll have an insatiable craving for curry and , I dunno..bollywood dancing (the horror, the horror)."

WTF is bollywood dancing? And I do actually like some curry, but that has more to do with the fact that I like good spicy food than anything else.

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